Dermapen can cause skin micro-tearing but the Derminator® won't

It is an age-old phenomenon: Something cheap and useful comes along, it becomes popular, and then what happens is always the same: A "more advanced" version is agressively marketed to the happy users of the cheap, simple, effective product. It's a proven concept. People will think: "Wow, that's a genius idea - if a manual needling instrument has improved my skin so much already, imagine how much easier and better things will be with one of those!"

Well, potentially, yes. In principle. But not yet. There are no safe "derma-pens" yet. Update 2 years after this article was written: We developed our own machine that does not cause tearing! See below.

Some years ago, we wanted to develop and market an automatic dermastamp (like a tattoo machine). We thought that would be an excellent idea, and in principle it is, but in practice there is a big problem: Tearing of the skin.

Because with an electric dermastamp (Derma-pen etc.), it is you who moves the device over the skin, instead of the device moving "itself", as a train on rails or, a better analogy, a cog over another cogwheel. It is you who moves a dermaroller, but the dermaroller moves always in an unchangable way - straight ahead, and there are always a few rows of needles at any one time burrowed into the skin. That is very important, because that principle ensures that it is impossible to cause skin tearing. When the "back row" of needles it being lifted out of the skin, they can't tear the skin, because the "middle row" and "front row" are securing the dermaroller firmly in place. The little vertical movement of the needles that is possible with the dermarolling method remains within the flexibility limits of even the least flexible skin.

Source: Youtube video uploaded by Dermapen®, used in Fair Use (review purposes). URL: https://youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=29bWwHzl1ec

Not so with the Dermapen. The dermapen is an automatic dermastamp, like a tattoo machine with many needles. The big drawback with that system is that you can move it into any direction with any speed, and that while you're moving it, the needles go in and out at a very high speed. The speed of the needles is independent of the speed you're moving the pen with. That is the opposite of what happens with a dermaroller. A dermaroller's needles move with the exact same speed you're moving the roller head with, because the needles are moved by you moving the roller head. Skin tearing is absolutely impossible with a dermaroller (or manual dermastamp), by its very design. Its needles pierce the skin, slide in and out without possibility to move sideways because the other needles anchor the roller head to the skin.

It's not "coring out" the skin that we're trying to achieve, but making "channels". The idea is to cause just the right amount of inflammation while causing the least possible skin trauma.

A tear is horizontal and a channel is vertical.

There are many reasons why we only want vertical channels and not horizontal tears:

1) Because of its verticalness, a channel's visible surface is much smaller than a tear's visible surface. This is important due to the fact that we want to minimize scarring in susceptible individuals.

2) A tear causes much more skin trauma and thus involves a greater likelihood of scarring than a channel, because a channel is made by piercing the skin with a needle, whereas a tear is made by pulling the blunt side of the needle through the skin.

3) Because of the horizontal orientation of nerves in the skin, tears have a much higher statistical likelihood to cause pain than channels, even though the nerves reside deeper than the needling depth, tears cause shearing forces on them. I think that a lot of the pain from dermaneedling is caused by lateral forces.

4) Because of the horizontal orientation of capilaries in the skin, tears have a much higher statistical likelihood to cause bleeding than channels.

5) Micro-tears can rip the edge of pores, permanently enlarging them. The nature of holes made out of collagen and elastin is such that when you make a sideways cut through their boundary, that the sideways stresses by the skin around the hole causes the hole to enlarge. The remodeling hapens, and the hole is permanently enlarged. This means that microtearing on facial skin can cause permanently enlarged pores in susceptible individuals.

Here you can see how cheap Chinese "buzzers" tear the skin:

microtearing-small

Years ago, we already warned against using a tattoo machine, exactly because of the inevitability of skin tearing (so small you won't see or notice it, but it happens nevertheless). The duty cycle of a tattoo machine's needles (or of a dermapen's needles) is not suitable for skin needling. A tattoo is not intended to improve your skin! Tattooing is not the same as collagen regeneration. "Duty cycle" means in this case how many percent of the time the needle is down. With a dermapen, the needles are more or less fully down 25% of the time, more or less fully up 25% of the time, and somewhere in between 50% of the time. Approx. 10% of the latter 50%, the needles are scratching over your skin, while you move the dermapen. And while the needles are down (approx. 25% of the time), you are also moving the device, causing skin tears because a dermapen's needles always point straight down. By design, its needles can't "slide out" of the skin. So what you do is causing small horizontal tears in the skin, even when you move it quite slowly and that is totally inevitable, no matter what setting you use. It would be theoretically avoidable, if the dermapen would have a different duty cycle but that would require a strong spring combined with an extremely strong electromagnet. That way, the needles would be down into the skin only 5% of the time or less, and that would be sufficient to avoid microtearing. The very strong electromagnet would be able to quickly pull the needles up, yielding a spike-patterns instead of oscillating in a sinoid pattern. The strong spring would push the needles very quickly down. That combo would be able to have the short duty-cycle required to avoid microtearing. However, such a device would be much more expensive to produce and bulkier and heavier than the currently available dermapens that use cheap, simple technology. We have done a dermapen test and those devices suffer from the micro-tearing issue, because their technology is lacking. Their needle's down-cycle lasts too long, causing skin micro-tearing.

In my opinion, the companies that market gimmicks such as the Dermapen® know nothing about dermaneedling, but they know everything about marketing and they have very large budgets for it. Their public relations advisors often seem to think that to attack is the best defense, so what the manufacturers of the Dermapen® did was hire an animation studio and instructed them to visualize "how a dermaroller causes skin tearing, whilst a Dermapen® doesn't". They did a good job - it sure looks scary to me.

Now is the time to remind our readers that in an animation, one can make things happen that aren't real. I can't count the times that Wile E. Coyote has been blown up by Roadrunner or Bugs Bunny. The manufacturer of the Dermapen® employs a particularly devious form of marketing: Bringing a flawed product to market and then accusing everyone else of having their flaw. FUD-generator on overdrive. These people have no clue about dermaneedling, or they just don't care - or both, or worse. We keep being amazed at the absence of even subsistence levels of ethics in this field. We see it time and time again and people keep falling for it: Business people trying to grab a substantial piece of the pie, using dirty tricks to gain market share. Disinformation techniques have to compensate for incompetence and greed. They want your money and they will say anything to get it. And every time we expose some inconvenient truth on our site, we get threatened with a lawsuit. (They just threatened us with one, as predicted.) Those marketing wizards have a lot of money for advertising and lawyers - because they need it. We use word-of-mouth only, so our customers don't pay our advertising expenses. Their business model doesn't work that way.

Update: Years after writing this, we finally are about to launch our own device, the Derminator®. Here you can read all info on this fully digital dermaneedling device. Some pictures of how the first versions of the machine looked, in December 2014:

Derminator-owndoc

Derminator-US-plug

1. CM Thursday, June 14, 2012

Anyone who visits the Dermapen website can find more than enough evidence to make a sound and educated decision without being persuaded by your own agenda.

By slandering and making preemptive claims that sound as if they are purely speculation you negate the evidence by world class physicians across the world who are providing studies that justify and show 100% objective improvement in results from derma rolling techniques against the Dermapen http://dermapen.com/stu.... This study will convince any of the readers on this article.

The slanderous comments found in your article are both offensive and mislead your audience:

FIRST OFFENSE - False testing claims
"With a dermapen, the needles are more or less fully down 25% of the time, more or less fully up 25% of the time, and somewhere in between 50% of the time. Approx. 10% of the latter 50%, the needles are scratching over your skin, while you move the dermapen. And while the needles are down (approx. 25% of the time), you are also moving the device, causing skin tears because a dermapen’s needles always point straight down. By design, its needles can’t “slide out” of the skin. So what you do is causing small vertical tears in the skin, even when you move it quite slowly and that is totally inevitable, no matter what setting you use."

THERE'S NO STUDY REFERENCE TO THIS AND NO ADEQUATE DISPLAY OF SOUND EVIDENCE. ALSO "SMALL VERTICAL TEARS" IN THE SKIN DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE. HOW CAN SOMETHING ENTERING THE SKIN VERTICALLY CREATE A "TEAR?"

SECOND OFFENSE - Slander - These comments have purely subjective origin and should not be viewed as fact. The knowledge of Dermapen's corporate structure is purely conjecture as well as the specifics of how it does business.

"The companies that market gimmicks such as the Dermapen® know nothing about dermaneedling,"

"The manufacturer of the Dermapen® employs a particularly devious form of marketing"

"But the fancy electrified gadgets in the dermaneedling space simply don’t cut it, at least not yet."

"These people have no clue about dermaneedling, or they just don’t care – or both, or worse. We keep being amazed at the absence of even subsistence levels of ethics from those crap-vendors in China."

Conclusion:
These statements falsely discredit all the research and information from the studies anyone can find by visiting the www.dermapen.com website.
Your SUBJECTIVE article lacks the OBJECTIVE quality found in reviews that promote a spirit of increasing unbiased awareness with the overall goal to find and provide helpful products and treatments for your readers.

Thank you,

A concerned reader.

2. Mark McGillis Thursday, February 7, 2013

If the Dermapen causes skin tearing and the derma-roller does not, this means the results of the derma-roller treatment are better than the results of a Dermapen treatment, Your article fails to mention what the bad effects of a Dermapen "tearing" treatment versus a derma-roller treatment. You also state that you would not use an electric device until you found the proper one. Last week your company introduced an electric micro-needling device. Therefore under your analysis, it works better than a Dermapen and does not cause skin tearing but sells for the same retail price as a Dermapen. Your article sounds more like a defensive move to scare the general public rather than an informational piece to educate the public on micro-needling.

3. Sarah Vaughter Friday, February 8, 2013

This time, you Dermapen PR folks have reached a new low - you deliberately made a false statement with the intent to damage my reputation and my livelihood. You claim:

"Last week your company introduced an electric micro-needling device"

That is a lie. We do not sell such a product and until we will have found an electric needling device that does not cause micro-tearing of the skin, we will not sell such a product. The idea of an electric dermaneedling device is in principle sound, so years ago we already had plans to develop and sell such a device, however our research shows that such a device needs to be constructed radically differently as they are now. With currently available technology, a very expensive device would be the result, and it would be unaffordable to all but clinicians.

Back up your allegation with proof, or submit an apology. Publicly please, just as your allegations were posted publicly.

Awaiting your retraction and apology, our attorney is investigating where else you have published criminal libel (libel with intent to do financial harm to a business competitor). Since you are the director at NeedleLogics and a partner of DermaPen, and since your site's WHOIS technical contact is Mike Morgan, co-founder/CEO at Dermapen with the email address of mike@dermapen.com, your public libel constitutes a very severe (up to 5 years) prisonable offense in my country, various EU countries (esp. the UK, where we can choose to bring a lawsuit in addition to Switzerland) and quite possibly also the US. Switzerland has an extradition treaty with the US. In addition, when a US citizen is convicted of a crime in Europe, Europol will make the arrest as soon as you enter any European country. Thankfully, the rule of law protects small European companies from the likes of you.

4. Mark McGillis Friday, February 8, 2013

Sarah, I posted about your article yesterday as the Director of Training, Certification, and Education Development for Needlelogics, a company that educates practitioners on the Dermapen device. Your sight does not allow for any questions in a posting. I had misinformation that your company was producing a micro needleing device in Germany. THAT WAS MISINFORMATION and as I couldn't ask, I merely said if you were, how do you reconcile that. My intent was to make a public comment based on what I thought to be credible knowledge. Regardless of the libelous issues you are threatening, the fact you are not making a device is the issue. I publicly apologize for my misinformation about your products and the fact I thought you were introducing an electric device. No ill intent.

With that being said, we both know, and I assume you have a legal background as I do, slander is an untruth about an individual or a company. A libelous comment is one made with the intent to harm. Neither of those legal remedies exist for you and I would never intend to battle product superiority through the legal system. I am very sorry you misinterpreted and believe your current and future clients would interpret my "comment" without the ability to ask questions as "a new low" for Derma Pen. Needlelogics is NOT a partner of Derma Pen and only handles education for the Dermapen device. Similarly, if I said in a public post that Lockheed engines are safer than Rolls Royce for travel by air, please understand that is an opinion. But if I were to say Rolls Royce air turbines are unsafe, that needs to be backed up with facts.

Derma Pen does not market its products or brand it's name by degrading the competition. The same philosophy stands for Needlelogics. If you don't have a device like the Dermapen, again, my misunderstanding and I publicly accept your explanation.

In the article, it states Derma-pen [sic] and similar devices are gimmicks. That is not nice and a broad generalization, especially if you have not read the dozens of professional reports or the study done in the UK last year comparing their product with yours. Also, if in fact your claims that Dermapen devices and similar products are only made in China and So Korea; causes tearing; companies like Derma Pen use marketing instead of product quality to sell their device; and other disparaging statements such as implying Derma Pen had an intent to harm your company by stating you are coming out with a similar device, are true, neither of us should be proud of disparaging the other company.

Please re-read my comment wherein I curiously ask without compromising the restriction of "no questions" what the ill effects of tearing are if in fact your studies prove beyond a doubt those statements as well as the gimmick statement are true.

Remember also, I did not bring up your re-production of our materials and changing of the same, or any other possible slanderous statements made about Dermapen style devices. I simply am an educator and was wondering where your studies were done and if your company had used our device or seen our studies. Never did I state Dermapen's device can control the depth of the needle wound, work in facial space whether broad or tight, is consistent on the needle exposure, or other issues. It is because you company published an article of opinion and I replied based on those opinions. I was looking for substantiation of facts. That simple.

Your company has been in this industry for many years. I suspect you will be around with demand for your product for many more and I wish you continued success. I many not believe an electric blender is better than a hand grinder in the result but I certainly believe just based on my research, the end product of use of both will be different.

And in case you did not clearly understand, I was mistaken in thinking you had produced the device to compete with Dermapens when your article states you are still sourcing it.

Mark McGillis

5. Sarah Vaughter Friday, February 8, 2013

If NeedleLogic only gives Dermapen training and is not affiliated with Dermapen, then I wonder why Dermapen owns NeedleLogic's website..

I also remind you as well as our readers that I wrote this article not as some kind of warfare against a competing product, but as our defense against your defamatory remarks against our company. You (Dermapen) claimed that our products (dermarollers) cause microtearing of the skin. It was only after your media campaign spread that nonsense that we chose to respond with the truth about your product.

We knew all along that in fact it is electric needling devices that cause microtearing, not dermarollers. However we chose to be courteous about this and not disparage you, our competition.

However, by making your libellous statements about our products you invited our response. We only expose something or someone on our site when they have first drawn attention to themselves by making defamatory allegations about us.

You remind me of White Lotus. They were very angry when we exposed their before-and-after photos as fake through their embedded EXIF data. Why did we do that? They started the "war" by falsely claiming that (our) skin creams with vitamins cause liver poisoning. It would be better for people who live in glass houses not to throw the first stone. There is not one single ethical actor in this business but us. This field seems to attract nothing but scammers. Our products are 100% safe, clinically proven and we are the best in the business - as evidenced by the photos our happy customers submit on an ongoing basis.

As to the substantiation you're asking for: First of all, you started to make the claim that our products cause microtearing of the skin. So far, you have not offered the slightest evidence to back that up. Methinks that if anyone has to offer substantiation, it should first be you. We have already explained in this article exactly the physical mechanism as to why dermarollers can't cause microtearing and why an instrument such as yours inevitably will.

6. Khameez7 Saturday, February 23, 2013

Thank you for posting information and backing it up. I almost bought into dermapen technology.

7. Sarah Vaughter Wednesday, March 6, 2013

Thank you - We are also looking forward to that, we'll be one of the first to sell such a device.

Anyone reading this: If you know of a "Dermapen" that penetrates the skin forcefully, just like a manual dermaneedling instrument does, and one that has a duty-cycle of "needles down" only about 10% of the cycle period, email sarah@owndoc.com and we'll test it, to be included in our store.

8. NadiaGB Tuesday, March 12, 2013

Hi Sarah, So you say a dermaroller will NOT cause damage to the skin as indicated in Dermapens Youtube video? I was going to buy a dermaroller from your site and then I saw the dermapen animation on youtube which put me off buying the dermaroller. But then I thought about the dermapen for a while and realized that, Won't gliding the dermapen accross the face cause scraping of the skin? Would you recommend Dermaroller as a 100% safe device to use on the face then?
Please reply.
Thanks

9. Sarah Vaughter Tuesday, March 12, 2013

Yes, as I tried to explain in this article, there is just no way a dermaroller possibly can cause skin microtearing, it is the other way round.

The reason we do not sell "dermapens" (there are many producers of such) is two-fold:

1. They do not have sufficient penetrative strength

2. Even if they would have sufficient penetrative strength, they inevitably would cause skin microtearing unless very special, very expensive technology would be used to have the needle "down" only a very small percentage of the time.

My personal hope/plan about the future is that I will be vigilant as to when a "dermapen" will be available that does not have the above two drawbacks. Because I had this idea half a decade ago already. It is in principle a very good idea. But in practice, a properly-working, non-microtearing device would likely be very expensive.

As to whether a dermaroller is 100% safe to use on the face: No. No skin treatment is 100% safe for all people. About one in 5000 people say they get permanently enlarged pores from dermarolling the face. We do not know whether that is due to bad quality needles in cheap dermarollers though. It may be genetical predisposition as well.

10. Anthony Sunday, April 14, 2013

looking forward to the dermajet :)

11. Lucia Rodrigues Saturday, June 8, 2013

I happily don't do business with fraud company as Dermapen. I am a licensed esthetician for 15 years. I am a disciple of Dr Des Fernandes.

12. Antoinette Thursday, August 1, 2013

Hi Sarah

I bought a Microneedling device which work similar like the Eclipse Micropen and Dermapen. It doesn't have a name. I bought it from the Company Veeway in South Africa and it is said that they bought if trom a Company who sell the devices to Rejuvi in the US. It can penetrate the skin from 0.25 to 2.5mm and also has adjustable speed, but I would like to find out if my device is causing skin tearing. How can I do that? Hope you can help me? Antoinette

13. Antoinette Thursday, August 1, 2013

Hi Sarah

I wanted to send you a message, but I sent it to Lucia. Hope you can read it? Antoinette

14. Sarah Vaughter Thursday, August 1, 2013

Sellotape a sheet of paper onto the edge of a table and pull it taut with one hand, while you move relatively rapidly with the needling device over the paper, using slight pressure. Move the device in the direction hand --> table.

Then hold the sheet against the light and look at the puncture holes with a magnifying glass. When they are visibly elongated, the device will cause microtearing of the skin.

15. Antoinette Thursday, August 1, 2013

I will do that and come back to you, but I was told in my training to work in strokes,but I hold my 12 point needle (which looks exactly like the eclipse micropen) on one spot, lift up and then move to next spot... I do not move the device backwards and forwards. I understand that can cause tearing, but i do not do that. Is that safe?

16. Sarah Vaughter Thursday, August 1, 2013

No, that is not safe. It won't cause tearing but it will cause "mashing". Too many pricks too close together.

Pricks will overlap and the end result is worse than microtearing.

17. Jesse Aitchison Thursday, August 8, 2013

Hi Sarah,

I recently purchased one of your Derma Jets and it arrived a few days ago. I have yet to use it, but I now see the update you've posted in the above article indicating that you will no longer be selling this product. Is this simply because they're liable to breaking and the cost of replacing the items under the 1-year warranty is prohibitive? Or is it because they are not as effective as you had originally thought?

I was also curious, what is the ultimate damage of micro-tearing? Does it work against the collagen-producing effects of proper micro-needling, or is the drawback simply pain and irritation? I don't imagine that you'd be selling the Derma Jet if it presented a serious risk of creating micro-tearing, but I thought I'd double-check to be sure.

Thanks Sarah,

Jesse

18. Kristy Wednesday, September 11, 2013

I have tried dermapen and this last time was my 4th time but this last one they did it pretty hard. I ended up with more holes on my face and some indentions. can this go away if i use a dermaroller? I am so upset and worried.

19. Sarah Vaughter Sunday, September 15, 2013

For the time being, do not use anything and give your skin some time. It may
improve by itself in a few months.

20. ZAntar Friday, October 11, 2013

Hi Kristy. i've been advised to have dermapen/subcision/tca cross although i do not have severe acne scarring (i have some shallow boxcar scarring on both cheeks, in some lighting it does not show at all). i'm very worried about the procedure, especially as i had fraxel two years ago and i'm convinced that made the texture of my skin coarse and enlarged my pores. would you advise against dermapen after your experience? my dermatologist says i need 3-6 treatments. sarah, an advice from you too would be helpful. thanks.

21. kelly Saturday, December 21, 2013

"I was mistaken in thinking you had produced the device to compete with Dermapens when your article states you are still sourcing it."

Even so...please do not be hostile with any one you think who is in competition with you, Mark. :)

22. Angelique Tuesday, January 21, 2014

I've had amazing results with the derma roller, with not damage. It just hurts like hell. I just bought the derma pen as it doesn't hurt as much ;however, I have micro tearing all over ;((. They're like tiny blood blisters or bruises. They didn't form until an hour or longer after.

23. Maria Sunday, February 23, 2014

Is true that dermapen causes micro-tearing. I had 2 dermapen sessions with PRP for my stretch marks and I can clearly see the lines where the device went through. I paid $2,000 and my marks are the same.. I don't know if the dermaroller works better, but I wouldn't trust or do another dermapen session. Very painful and I didn't see any results.. don't mention the price!

24. Sarah Vaughter Sunday, February 23, 2014

The problem with the too long dutycycle is that it's painful. 2000 dollars is outrageous. People should do these type of treatments at home for a fraction of the price.

25. Maria Monday, February 24, 2014

Do you think my skin will be damage for life? It was my first pregnancy when I got the stretch marks, I would like to have 2 more babies, but now I'm more afraid of my skin stretching because of the micro-tears.. thanks for your advice, I wish I've seen it before!!

26. LogicalGaL Sunday, March 30, 2014

This article makes a lot of sense. I was just thinking about the fact that when you don't release the Derma pen machine away from the skin surface and needles are still underneath your skin and you move it, then it drags and cause tearing of skin. The first time I was was watching the video, I watched it multiple times and the analogy the companies bring to viewers is questionable, Common sense kicks in--that there's no way, it could be better. What I think, and I'm basing this on my derma rolling experience is that, the best way to improve derma roller gadget is that it should be steady and sturdy. Also thinner needles that would not leave big holes or else it will poke and damage your skin. I have different brands I tried in my face and there are rollers out there that are thick and those are the needles that hurts and there are also needles that are not sturdy enough that the tip of the needle bends. There sure is a room for improvement for this product. The derma roller is very effective but the manufacturer should make quality control and be safer for home use. Last thing, the o ly thing I think that's beneficial to make it an electric derma roll product is people that has problems with using their hands in a long time. Usually a good quality rolling time for a whole face takes 15-20 minutes. And for me having to hold it tight and been suffering with carpal tunnel syndrome, it's quite an ordeal. I struggle and have to stop a mnite or so because I can't hold much longer. Also having an electric and disposable needles that can be attached for one use is a good thing because you know it's sterile. Also an electric gadget would be a good upgrade or ideal if they will make some kind of precision on how to time the movement of the gadget. Maybe some tiny light goes in and out that tells when to move the gadget and move to the next surface of skin or maybe a beeping sound that tells user that it safe to move.

If I don't suffer having carpal tunnel issues with my hands, I'm fine using derma roller except that I have to watch the needles being bent.

27. Kevin Sunday, May 18, 2014

Hi Kristy did your skin heal

28. Doo Wednesday, May 21, 2014

what's the difference between making little holes and micro tearing? aren't they essentially the same? the logic behind using dermaroller/ dermapen is to cause little scar on the skin and derive regeneration of fresh new skin. I am not convinced by this article.

29. Sarah Vaughter Wednesday, May 21, 2014

I am very bad at explaining things sometimes, sorry :-)

It's not "coring out" the skin that we're trying to achieve, but making "channels". The idea is to cause just the right amount of inflammation while causing the least possible skin trauma.

A tear is horizontal and a channel is vertical.

There are many reasons why we only want vertical channels and not horizontal tears:

4) Because of the horizontal orientation of capilaries in the skin, tears have a much higher statistical likelihood to cause bleeding than channels.

If any of the points above need more clarification, I can make a drawing or supply a mathematical formula. I also have the experience of email communication with literally thousands of customers over the years (sigh - I don't do that anymore..), as well as with prominent and respected dermaneedling practitioners (clinic owners, needling pioneers). And I read the scientific literature.

30. Rosie Monday, June 16, 2014

Dear Sarah,

I SO wish I had read tis article before I had my dermapen treatment done 6 months ago. I can see microtearing all over my face that looks like little lines/wrinkles. The treatment worked in that it filled in some of my scars with scar tissue. I have bought your single needles and dermastamps to try and fill in the rest. Since my skin is already damaged, will microneedling it again be really bad for it? theres no way im ever going back for another dermapen.

31. Lua Lewis Thursday, January 28, 2016

Is there any way to fix this micro tearing ? I have it too and my pores seems to be bigger . Idk what to do. Someone out there if you have any suggestions pls help.

32. Deborah S Sunday, November 19, 2017

I had a dermapen treatment 7 weeks ago.

Now I read some horrible revieuws on realself about people having dermapen treatment and destroying collagen , elastin, loss of facial fat and make them 10 / 20 years older?

Is that really possible? This article is warning about microtearing? But is it also possible that collagen and elastin is severely damaged?

I ask because I think I have a line when I smile I thought didnt have before (I am 38) and when I look in strong daylight I see some vertical lines there (crepey) and my lower cheeck/ around my mouth seem less firm/ weaker skin.

And if dermapen caused it, is it reversable??

33. Sarah Vaughter Sunday, November 19, 2017

It's impossible for anyone to answer this with any degree of certainty. All I can say is the following:

1. Dermaneedling done at home is a multi-billion dollar/year threat to the Fraxel / Botox / Facelift etc. industry and as with all high-stake commercial issues, major stakeholders or disgruntled individuals will engage in disinformation, since just a few strategically placed horror stories can reduce their financial loss significantly. So please thoroughly verify the genuineness of any such reports. Unless they are documented with before-and-after pics that are both taken under the same lighting conditions, without makeup or any other products applied, with similar hydration status, under the same angle, with the same camera, are both of similar sharpness and are not manipulated in any way, you simply can not trust such reports, not even when they genuinely come from concerned individuals becasue they simply may be mistaken.

2. It is my honest opinion that ALL electronic dermaneedling equipment EXCEPT our product, the Derminator(R) will cause skin damage. We tried to explain and show exactly how and why that happens and why our unique machine doesn't do that, even demonstrated it with a competing model vs. our machine and used a microscope, we did it real-time without editing to leave no doubt, but people still don't seem to know about microtearing or do not seem to care. The absence of microtearing is such a major feature in the Derminator(R) that we've thought about pricing our next model to cost thousands of dollars (only clinics will pay that price, the machine will detect it's being used in clinics and will require a paid-for passcode to continue functioning).

3. In ordinary, typical, average people (the great majority, 99.9%), dermaneedling does not damage collagen, elastin or subcutaneous fat deposits.

4. (3) is only true when:

4a. You do not exceed OUR recommendations for needling depth and treatment intervals. WE are the ONLY experts (as well as Des Fernandes, the plastic surgeon who invented the dermaroller). ALL other sellers of dermaneedling instruments are Chinese scammers or otherwise highly unethical people, totally ignorant of the science and only interested in making money. If you disregard OUR advice (from our PDF), you may end up with skin damage, over time.

4b. You do not take ANY chemicals that impair wound healing. MANY types of herbal teas, medications and nutritional supplements GREATLY impair wound healing and we've noticed, after thorough questioning and researching what they took, that those few customers of ours that complained about their skin deteriorating ALWAYS used products that were in our opinion directly responsible. You have to realize that any kind of "interesting Indian herb/tea" (considered "highly beneficial") can UTTERLY destroy your skin when combined with dermaneedling due to MASSIVELY impaired wound healing. It is NEVER a good idea to take ANY supplements unless you know EXACTLY (on absolute expert-level, WAY beyond a medical specialist etc!) what its effects are on your specific cellular biology when you injure your skin. We already identified several of these dangerous substances but the list is probably endless. Nutmeg and Cinnamon would never be approved nowadays, they can and will kill / cause cancer at moderate doses. Indian/Chinese herbs are MUCH scarier than Cinnamon and Nutmeg. There is no such thing as "Chemical = bad" and "Natural = good". Everything always is 100% "chemical" and always 100% bad, at a certain dose. NEVER take any herb, supplement, cream or even multivitamin unless you're a world expert in biochemistry and have done your own animal experiments with that substance and published your research. Or unless you are intimately familiar with such research.

Whether such damage is reversible: No one knows. It happens very rarely, usually with people heavily into oriental supplements, herbs and teas, and likely also with a tiny percentage (a very vocal, of course, 0.1% in my estimation and we had approx. 50,000 dermaneedling customers over the past decade).

34. Sarah Vaughter Sunday, November 19, 2017

I forgot to say a very important thing:

Most companies that sell dermarollers sell a roller that UTTERLY destroys the skin, giving dermaneedling a bad reputation. I refer to the "Titanium 540 needles" roller. Those are not needles but stamped knives! So they SLICE deep furrows through your skin, permanently enlarging pores etc. Nearly every major competitor sells those rollers exclusively. Rejuveness for ex. All incompetent, unethical Chinese vendors pretending to be based in Europe or North America.

35. Deborah S Monday, November 20, 2017

Thanx Sarah for your reply, I was talking about this (it is al dermapen) , the second one even tells they used 0.5 mm I cant believe that, some people replies it happens to people who use hydrocortisone after.

https://realself.com/review/florida-dermapen-microneedling-pen-device-destroyed-skins-elasticity-collagen?offset=0&sle=0#

https://realself.com/review/netherlands-nl-dermapen-microneedling-ruined-skin

https://realself.com/review/bexley-dermatology-damaged-skin-microneedling#

These are real horror stories.

I personally supplement ascorbic acid and a multivitamin and zink. Advised by orthomoluculair therapist. This doctor which has a nutritional balancing program also recommmends this supplements for everyone http://drlwilson.com/articles/SUPPLEMENTS-BASIC.htm
You do not even recommend sunscreen? (because that is a cream) .

I am now not sure the vertical lines on the lower cheeck (only on my left side and folds come in when I smile) are microtears or just natural aging. Its a bit strange because now at 38 I have nearly lines and the skin on the lower cheeck looks a bit weaker and older.

Sarah, in both cases, so if its microtears (damage from dermapen) can I fix it with dermarolling at home with your equipment?

I go check your website fur further information.

36. Sarah Vaughter Monday, November 20, 2017

Under no circumstance use ANY supplement recommended by a quack ("Orthomoluculair" etc. is unscientific nonsense and those people have of course no idea what the effect of what they prescribe is on the healing skin). Although those supplements sounds reasonable, the dose is important, as well as their exact chemical constitution. The chemical formula(e) of that Zinc, for example. The exact doses of every vitamin in that multivitamin. And their PROPORTIONS.

NEITHER DO MEDICAL SPECIALISTS know anything about which chemicals (vit. C is a chemical, etc.) affects wound healing. In other words, do not use anything except ordinary FOOD and small doses of vitamins and minerals of which absolutely no negative effects on wound healing is known in the scientific literature in any dose. If you are not prepared or unable to do that, do not dermaneedle.

"Sunscreen" is a generic term that does not specify which of hundreds of possible chemicals are in the cocktail. DEFINITELY do not ignore my warning of not using sunscreen on freshly dermarolled skin and DEFINITELY do not ignore my warning of completely staying out of the sun after dermarolling (I'd go as far as not getting any direct sunshine on deeply-needled skin for DAYS after treating with relatively deep needles).

No, I do not know whether a properly administered dermaneedling regimen can (partially) correct skin, damaged by microtearing and/or certain chemicals - assuming that damage is indeed caused by such and not by a rare genetic susceptibility. You have to assume things will get WORSE.. I am sorry about that.

37. Sarah Vaughter Monday, November 20, 2017

As to your links, describing how the Dermapen ruined people's skin:

This page, my article warned many years ago that the Dermapen destroys the skin... I tried to warn these people... Practitioners as well as potential patients... It's not that dermaneedling per se can damage skin, it's all _electronic devices_ *** except ours *** - except when you have a rare genetic issue with skin injury healing and/or you're using any supplement/tea or medication that can impair skin injury healing. Dermapen will always "win" in the end, ruining people's skin because they spare no expense, hyping their garbage device. We never advertize, we only write informative articles.

DO NOT TAKE ***ANY*** SUPPLEMENTS OR HERBS WHEN DERMANEEDLING OR RECOVERING FROM DEEP NEEDLING, REGARDLESS HOW CLEVER THE PERSON PRESCRIBING THEM TO YOU THINKS HE/SHE IS AND REGARDLESS HOW CLEVER YOU THINK HE/SHE IS AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE USE AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE TO NEEDLE YOUR SKIN EXCEPT THE DERMINATOR®.

I know that we gave our machine a scary name, but it's so far to my knowledge the only inherently safe dermaneedling device. Meanwhile, always do test patches, to be sure you don't have a rare genetic skin healing issue, never exceed my treatment frequency (days interval) & depth limits and never ever use any supplements, teas, ointments all around the treatment/recovery period, except what I recommend in my PDF's.

38. Sarah Vaughter Monday, November 20, 2017

Sarsparilla is one of those supplements that causes impaired skin healing after dermaneedling. There was another herb but I forgot. Stay far away from Indian/Chinese natural medicine, -herbs and -teas when dermaneedling!

39. Deborah schippers Monday, November 20, 2017

Sarah,

Things get worse after dermarolling or by time?
I don't understand. It is now 8 weeks ago.

I dont have the enlarged pores you talk about with microtearing.
I still have very fine pores.
Well I guess I wil never know my skin still looks fine. But I was scared about reading the reviews and noticing the lines, but I am also a person with a V shape face with not much fat on the lower cheeks so maybe I did not notice it before, only in very light daylight in a mirror.

40. Sarah Vaughter Monday, November 20, 2017

Hi Deborah,

I just checked and we have no customers with your name, so I am unable to look up our support history with you or what needle length & products you purchased from us. I assume you used competing products to treat your skin. If that is the case, if you used an electric dermaneedling instrument or the very common 540-knives roller, skin damage is virtually guaranteed. Especially the ubiquitous 540-knives roller will always cause fine lines. That is permanent. That roller is giving dermaneedling a very bad name and we warn against it (with picture of the horrific skin damage!) on our frontpage. That's a very major thing for us, to use our prime site estate for that, it permanently occupies our entire owndoc.com homepage.

No, dermaneedling, unless you have a genetic skin healing impairment disorder that I estimate less than 0.1% of people suffer from, or unless you used a dangerous needling instrument or unless you used a supplement (herb, medication) that impairs skin/wound healing, does not make the skin look worse over time, on the contrary it has become very popular due to the permanent improvements.

That being said, the older a person gets, the less "regenerative power" the skin posesses and the more important it is to do test patches, observe treatment interval and -needling depth/density limits, stay out of the sun and other such precautions. And it is of course possible that some older people will suffer negative effects. The great majority of at least OUR older customers report strong improvement and even allowed us to use their before-and-after pictures on our site.

Could you tell me whether you ever used dermaneedling instruments not sourced from us, whether you always adhered to my guidelines (PDF on my site) and can you confirm that you did not use herbs/(incl. teas) or (Ayurvedic) supplements etc.?

41. Deborah S Monday, November 20, 2017

Sarah,

Well, I told you post 32 I had a dermapen treatment, and its now 8 weeks ago..
Im not on medication, i didnt use herbs.
Because I wanted to go for another treatment because she recommend more I went searching, and saw the (EXTREMELY) negative revieuws i was shocked. Those people had immediatley adverse reaction.
But I also read people dont had negative reaction. Thats why i went for research. And came here.

I never bought stuff on your website. I never dermarolled myself. A few years ago I had a dermarolling session with a woman who used a roller, she was using environ.

I went searching for older photos this year and I already had those smile lines more or less. So how can I know if its my natural aging or the dermapen treatment.
The people on real self had instant bad reaction. I am now 8 weeks further, and I think I see some less firmness, but in summer I had also a few months of intense stress...For example 2 days ago some ladies I told I am 38 and they said they also believed I could be 24/25.

Anyways..my question is..OK now I know that treatment is never good. But is there anything I can do. I Still have pretty good skin.If it was damaged and now 8 weeks ago, will ir repair by time? Is vitamin C serum helping or your dermarolling device? But you say time will worse?? Also if I am now 8 weeks further?? I dont have enlarged pores? My upper cheecks are still smooth.. the area I worry about I see that also with people of my age who didnt have had treatment. So its hard to tell for me because its not major but more due the fact I was shocked.

But if so... Can it worse or will it worse?
Or give it time to heal?? I mean I had only one treatment, not 2/3 or more, just one. If theres something to heal, like I said its not major differnece and I dont notice something excessive differnece and I see things other people of my age have to or much sooner.

So I wont go anymore thats for sure but to be sure is there something I can do if there's damage to neutralize or lessening?

I hope I van make myself clear, I'm from the Netheralnds.

42. Sarah Vaughter Monday, November 20, 2017

I see.

The problem is that the Dermapen causes permanent damage to the skin becasue it has a weak motor that makes the needles spend too much time insidethe skin. So when you move the needle cartridge over the skin, you're tearing up the skin. In my opinion, that carries a significant risk of causing permanent damage.

I do not know whether that can be improved. Perhaps. But I do not know how. Dermaneedling is a method to improve certain types of scars. But those scars are created with a totally different way than microtearing creates scars. I'm skeptical and extremely reluctant to even entertain the thought that dermaneedling may be able to resolve dermaneedling-related damage. The skin basically has been damaged by too much needle action. More needle action, even without microtearing, especially at your age, may be counterproductive.

Note that if I'd recommend you any action in response to your question, I'd go straight to jail for practicing medicine without a license so even if I knew the answer, I'd not tell you, since that would be a ciminal offense. But I'd point you gently towards the information anyway. I do not know the answer, unfortunately. But I suspect there is little to nothing you can do.

I know it sounds like self-promotion but ALL dermaneedling machines are scams. They are ALL based on repurposed and rebranded weak "buzzing" Chinese permanent makeup hardware. They are ALL manufactured and retailed by incompetent, disinterested companies. In my opinion, any clinic that does not use our Derminator device is criminally negligent after we explained and demonstrated in great detail, on video, using a microscope, the concept and cause of microtearing and its devastating tearing effect on the skin. We invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into developing our own machine for a reason: To be able to offer the world's ONLY safe dermaneedling machine. We are going to increase the price to many thousands of dollars (to clinics, not to private individuals) because there is no alternative to our ultra-advanced, fully computerized, ultrafast sensor-feedback based device and soon, US patients will start taking legal action against US clinics and practitioners for the damage done by the feeble Chinese buzzers like the Dermapen.

43. Deborah S Monday, November 20, 2017

So for clarity,
I dont see scars, I dont see enlarged pores, didnt use meds or herbs.
I do see a slightly difference in firness, and a slightly increase in smile lines and i dit the treatment just once.

44. Sarah Vaughter Monday, November 20, 2017

All I can recommend is not to get treatment with devices that can not demonstrate, on a piece of paper like in the video in this article, that they do not ear up the skin.

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